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New member and owner; excitement has now turned to concern
- Thread starter 2019classicEcoDiesel
- Start date
gofishingup
Member
- Sep 2, 2019
- 60
- 18
- Truck Year
- 2016
I'm an attorney and I can tell you if you make modifications to the vehicle in violation of the terms of the warranty, the warranty becomes voidable at the option of Chrysler (your state law may be different, but most aren't). It's in the fine print. Your argument is valid that if you delete an emission control component and the differential fails, that's not related to an emissions control issue and should be covered. The warranty generally is still voidable at the option of Chrysler, but in such a case, I doubt they are not going to cover it under warranty, it would just be bad for Chrysler not to cover it. The warranty also generally says you first agree to mediation and arbitration.
It's a whole different story if you delete an emissions control device and something malfunctions on the motor, it overheats and your truck burns. You can bet your bottom dollar that Chrysler is going to, or at least try to, tie the fire to the emissions control modification. You might ultimately win, but you're going to have large legal bills and Chrysler has high paid well prepared attorneys that know this area of the law inside and out.
In the end, we paid good money for these trucks with promises made by Chrysler about their performance. No one should have to resort to tuning this truck in any manner in order to get it to run properly and face possible fraud charges if you make modifications and then change it back to get warranty work done and don't disclose or lie to Chrysler about the modifications. I can tell you if you ever get involved in civil litigation in this area of the law, you are going to be deposed under oath and one of the first questions you're going to be asked is whether you made any modifications to the truck and if so, what modifications did you make? Your answer is made subject to criminal perjury. That means if you made a modification and you lie about it under oath in a civil lawsuit, and it's proven that you lied about it, you can go to prison. That's the position that people that make the modifications ultimately can put themselves in.
People can make the choice to make modifications to a diesel motor to get it to run better, they have been doing that since the diesel motor was first made. I do have a problem with the fact that the solution involves modification of the emission system which in all likelihood voids the warranty at Chrysler's option but the truck will run as it should if you bypass the emissions system. Chrysler knows that the fix has to deal with modification of the emission control system but the minute they open that can of worms, the feds at the EPA become involved and the class action lawsuits start getting filed.
In the end, Chrysler has put the consumer in a terrible position.
It's a whole different story if you delete an emissions control device and something malfunctions on the motor, it overheats and your truck burns. You can bet your bottom dollar that Chrysler is going to, or at least try to, tie the fire to the emissions control modification. You might ultimately win, but you're going to have large legal bills and Chrysler has high paid well prepared attorneys that know this area of the law inside and out.
In the end, we paid good money for these trucks with promises made by Chrysler about their performance. No one should have to resort to tuning this truck in any manner in order to get it to run properly and face possible fraud charges if you make modifications and then change it back to get warranty work done and don't disclose or lie to Chrysler about the modifications. I can tell you if you ever get involved in civil litigation in this area of the law, you are going to be deposed under oath and one of the first questions you're going to be asked is whether you made any modifications to the truck and if so, what modifications did you make? Your answer is made subject to criminal perjury. That means if you made a modification and you lie about it under oath in a civil lawsuit, and it's proven that you lied about it, you can go to prison. That's the position that people that make the modifications ultimately can put themselves in.
People can make the choice to make modifications to a diesel motor to get it to run better, they have been doing that since the diesel motor was first made. I do have a problem with the fact that the solution involves modification of the emission system which in all likelihood voids the warranty at Chrysler's option but the truck will run as it should if you bypass the emissions system. Chrysler knows that the fix has to deal with modification of the emission control system but the minute they open that can of worms, the feds at the EPA become involved and the class action lawsuits start getting filed.
In the end, Chrysler has put the consumer in a terrible position.
hossman
Member
- Oct 3, 2019
- 44
- 21
- Truck Year
- 2015
Yeah I won’t argue with you there I’ve been driving for 35 years now and I’ve never had an issue ever with any of my vehicles because of the maintenance In-service procedures I do. If the transmission goes out I will rebuild it myself for 10 % of the cost no biggie for me
hossman
Member
- Oct 3, 2019
- 44
- 21
- Truck Year
- 2015
You delete the EGR the chance you will use warranty 0%
gofishingup
Member
- Sep 2, 2019
- 60
- 18
- Truck Year
- 2016
Why buy a vehicle with a warranty then? The price of the warranty is built into the price of the vehicle. I paid for the warranty when I purchased the vehicle and I expect to maintain the warranty until it expires. It makes no sense to me that people are willing to throw the warranty out the window and let FCA off the hook. FCA created the problem and they need to fix it. And the fix IS NOT for the consumer to have to make modifications to the vehicle that voids the warranty; those people that do that are playing right into FCA hands. They will try and eliminate as many people as they can from a potential warranty pool, so when you make the modification, you are no longer a potential problem for FCA, you eliminated yourself voluntarily. FCA loves that, they didn't have to do anything to remove you from the warranty pool. At some point, they are going to have to deal with those of us that didn't void the warranty.
It's simple, I paid for the warranty and I do not intend to let FCA off the hook by making any modifications to the vehicle. Eventually, FCA will bring money to the table to deal with the bad design of this motor and the more people that are out of the pool by voiding their warranties, the better for me as that means more money for me in the end. So those that feel compelled to make the modification, I whole heartedly encourage you to do so, not only are you letting FCA off the hook but you're guaranteeing me a larger paycheck in the future when FCA is forced to deal with this problem.
It's simple, I paid for the warranty and I do not intend to let FCA off the hook by making any modifications to the vehicle. Eventually, FCA will bring money to the table to deal with the bad design of this motor and the more people that are out of the pool by voiding their warranties, the better for me as that means more money for me in the end. So those that feel compelled to make the modification, I whole heartedly encourage you to do so, not only are you letting FCA off the hook but you're guaranteeing me a larger paycheck in the future when FCA is forced to deal with this problem.
u go and buy your warrenty I will spend my money on fuel and drive my eco all over the country,while your truck is sitting in the dealers shop waiting for parts then the parts come in u get your truck back next day same problem as all I can say is to each their own I will drive a error free truck the dealers don't know how to fix these trucks they just throw parts at them
hossman
Member
- Oct 3, 2019
- 44
- 21
- Truck Year
- 2015
I was reading about the new 2020 eco-diesel and the changes that they made. Sounds like they did change the ERG valve. They added a low pressure that takes the exhaust after the particulate filter and runs that into the intake. Sounds like a better operation, but I would still do the delete day one to make the motor better.
hossman
Member
- Oct 3, 2019
- 44
- 21
- Truck Year
- 2015
Gosh I wonder what kind of gas mileage horsepower and torque after deleting all that off the new ones that would be awesome
I was told the new ones have the bigger load rating due to suspension upgrades mostly because so many bought the 3.0 to use commercial use.
Yes engine redesign too but lots of other heavy haul upgrades.
Maybe it might be worth looking at in 3 years when that engine is still in use or gone
Yes engine redesign too but lots of other heavy haul upgrades.
Maybe it might be worth looking at in 3 years when that engine is still in use or gone
I'm a new guy here, but thought I would make a couple of comments on this discussion.
FCA isn't the only horse to blame here, the main blame here lies with the EPA. The EPA is who is mandating all of the emissions requirements & components for these engines. Unfortunately these components are what's killing these marvelous engines, especially the ERG system that is pouring exhaust soot into the engine intakes. I'll guarantee that FCA would love to be able to offer these engines without the EGR systems and if they could there would be nothing but high praise for the ecodiesel. These systems are being mandated on all diesels no matter who the manufacture is & they all have issues with them. Caterpillar quit making engines for semi road trucks because they didn't want to deal with these issues. If you want an eye-opener search YouTube for BMW EGR fires and look at the problems they have had with their diesel EGR systems.
On the subject of deletes & tunes. The game has changed dramatically just recently on doing these because the EPA is cracking down on the suppliers of the tunes & delete components. As of right now you might not be able to find a supplier in the US for these. Then there's the situation where it's illegal federally to modify the emissions components & systems, so if you do so and get caught, that's on you.
There was a question about the gen-3 in the 2020's.
There's a bit of a mis-conception about the EGR system on it. Yes it's true that part of the EGR gases will be taken after the DPF filter & should be fairly soot free because of where they are tapped off the exhaust, but this will be a split system and some of the EGR gasses will be taken pre-DPF filter similar to the current gen-2 engines. Each of these EGR legs will have their own operating valves & coolers. In theory this system should be cleaner with less soot going into the intake manifold which is a good thing, the down side is it will be a more complex system with more parts to potentially fail.
Hopefully the gen-3 engine will have most of the bugs worked out and will be good reliable engines. Time will tell.
FCA isn't the only horse to blame here, the main blame here lies with the EPA. The EPA is who is mandating all of the emissions requirements & components for these engines. Unfortunately these components are what's killing these marvelous engines, especially the ERG system that is pouring exhaust soot into the engine intakes. I'll guarantee that FCA would love to be able to offer these engines without the EGR systems and if they could there would be nothing but high praise for the ecodiesel. These systems are being mandated on all diesels no matter who the manufacture is & they all have issues with them. Caterpillar quit making engines for semi road trucks because they didn't want to deal with these issues. If you want an eye-opener search YouTube for BMW EGR fires and look at the problems they have had with their diesel EGR systems.
On the subject of deletes & tunes. The game has changed dramatically just recently on doing these because the EPA is cracking down on the suppliers of the tunes & delete components. As of right now you might not be able to find a supplier in the US for these. Then there's the situation where it's illegal federally to modify the emissions components & systems, so if you do so and get caught, that's on you.
There was a question about the gen-3 in the 2020's.
There's a bit of a mis-conception about the EGR system on it. Yes it's true that part of the EGR gases will be taken after the DPF filter & should be fairly soot free because of where they are tapped off the exhaust, but this will be a split system and some of the EGR gasses will be taken pre-DPF filter similar to the current gen-2 engines. Each of these EGR legs will have their own operating valves & coolers. In theory this system should be cleaner with less soot going into the intake manifold which is a good thing, the down side is it will be a more complex system with more parts to potentially fail.
Hopefully the gen-3 engine will have most of the bugs worked out and will be good reliable engines. Time will tell.
gofishingup
Member
- Sep 2, 2019
- 60
- 18
- Truck Year
- 2016
I agree that the EPA has caused this situation but FCA has to stand behind what they sell. If it isn't possible to build a small diesel motor truck in the US to conform to the EPA, then FCA has to be honest about it.
The sad fact is, they have small diesels in trucks in other countries that don't have the EPA B.S. in this country, and those trucks are unbelievable both in terms of gas milage and durable. Look at the Toyota Hilux as an example. Go down to South American and see those early diesel Hilux's still on the road and getting 50-60 miles to the gallon, many well past the 300,000 mile mark..
Hopefully President Trump will do something with the EPA and get rid of all those B.S. regulations that are killing these diesel motor's performance.
The sad fact is, they have small diesels in trucks in other countries that don't have the EPA B.S. in this country, and those trucks are unbelievable both in terms of gas milage and durable. Look at the Toyota Hilux as an example. Go down to South American and see those early diesel Hilux's still on the road and getting 50-60 miles to the gallon, many well past the 300,000 mile mark..
Hopefully President Trump will do something with the EPA and get rid of all those B.S. regulations that are killing these diesel motor's performance.
I agree with you both.
If I'm going to spend 50 or 60k on your truck tell me the egr system is killing the longevity of the engine.
Tell me the intake manifold is going to be full of carbon in 10k miles.
Tell me it's in litigation with the epa.
Tell me me you see no fix for the egr before the engine fails so I can invest with your company with a vehicle that will serve my family well.
The dealership should have warned us when we made the purchase of the ED about the epa issue and the fact that it is a pos at the time of purchase. They took advantage of the sale, the commission was more important. BOOM oh but wait, take it back tell them it's junk and that you want them to buy it back! What! BOOM, they low ball you and try to screw you again.
Makes you want to rush over and buy another from the greedy bastarts!
One thing for sure and you don't need to be a HS grad!!
It sure as hell isn't the buyers fault the trucks are not suited for average use.
You read know on the web and all they rave about is all the HP and torque but, you don't hear anything about owner satisfaction.
If FCA treats everyone as they should in the end, the might get repeat business. I guess we will see how it pans out.
Love the truck hate the engine
If I'm going to spend 50 or 60k on your truck tell me the egr system is killing the longevity of the engine.
Tell me the intake manifold is going to be full of carbon in 10k miles.
Tell me it's in litigation with the epa.
Tell me me you see no fix for the egr before the engine fails so I can invest with your company with a vehicle that will serve my family well.
The dealership should have warned us when we made the purchase of the ED about the epa issue and the fact that it is a pos at the time of purchase. They took advantage of the sale, the commission was more important. BOOM oh but wait, take it back tell them it's junk and that you want them to buy it back! What! BOOM, they low ball you and try to screw you again.
Makes you want to rush over and buy another from the greedy bastarts!
One thing for sure and you don't need to be a HS grad!!
It sure as hell isn't the buyers fault the trucks are not suited for average use.
You read know on the web and all they rave about is all the HP and torque but, you don't hear anything about owner satisfaction.
If FCA treats everyone as they should in the end, the might get repeat business. I guess we will see how it pans out.
Love the truck hate the engine
I fully agree that FCA or any manufacturer should be responsible for the reliability & durability of their products. The point I was trying to make is that all of this is driven by the ever tightening EPA regulations and the manufacturers are having a hard time trying to meet those requirements and produce a reliable long lived product. Even the highly thought of 6.7 Cummins in the ram trucks are having EGR cooler leaking & cracking problems. The EGR systems are the Bain of our modern diesel engines & will probably lead to their demise if the manufactures can't over come the problems with them.
I have been to Argentina many times and have rode-in and drove diesel powered Hilux / Tacoma pick-ups. They're awesome and I wish we could buy them here. I've also been around factory diesel powered Ford ranger and Volkswagen pick-ups down there & they are great as well. The sad part is, if they were offered in the American market they would have these engine choking EGR systems installed & would probably have some of the same issues FCA is having with the ecodiesel.
FCA will either work through these issues or they will discontinue the ecodiesel experiment altogether. So far it's looking like they feel they can work through them. They could have easily made a business case to scrap the eco due to the problems they've had with the gen-2's instead they are doubling down with the re-designed gen-3 & are presently rolling it out across many makes & models in the FCA line up. Personally I'm hoping it works out both for them and the American consumer.
I have been to Argentina many times and have rode-in and drove diesel powered Hilux / Tacoma pick-ups. They're awesome and I wish we could buy them here. I've also been around factory diesel powered Ford ranger and Volkswagen pick-ups down there & they are great as well. The sad part is, if they were offered in the American market they would have these engine choking EGR systems installed & would probably have some of the same issues FCA is having with the ecodiesel.
FCA will either work through these issues or they will discontinue the ecodiesel experiment altogether. So far it's looking like they feel they can work through them. They could have easily made a business case to scrap the eco due to the problems they've had with the gen-2's instead they are doubling down with the re-designed gen-3 & are presently rolling it out across many makes & models in the FCA line up. Personally I'm hoping it works out both for them and the American consumer.
I know that's right.
If it's so bad they got to screw up a great thing, I guess firewood is next.
I was just discussing how nice it would be to get a hilux but maybe that's why Toyo didn't get in the race to desaster this next year.
They should have pulled these things when they saw how much carbon was piling up in the intakes.
I know internal combustion engine design, I've been to the training schools.
To sell an engine to anyone that breaths this much carbon through the intake is the sign of the devil in my opinion
If it's so bad they got to screw up a great thing, I guess firewood is next.
I was just discussing how nice it would be to get a hilux but maybe that's why Toyo didn't get in the race to desaster this next year.
They should have pulled these things when they saw how much carbon was piling up in the intakes.
I know internal combustion engine design, I've been to the training schools.
To sell an engine to anyone that breaths this much carbon through the intake is the sign of the devil in my opinion