Oil in coolant.

[Mharrison]

There would be a possibility of that if the oil cooler had anything to do with the exhaust/hot side of then engine. I simply can't believe they have obviously replaced thousands of engines under warranty and have not put out a recall or update.

 

[seiko]

It would seem to indicate, they haven't figure out the issues. Proving to be difficult to figure out or if they did, a viable solution.

I only recently been monitoring the oil temperatures, so don't know what temperatures it hit when I pulling and/or when running 1500 f.

I know the coolant was normal, and the transmission was normal range, but no idea yet, what the oil temperature peaked. I be watching for that when I start towing again in a month or so.

I did notice recently, that the oil temperature climbs quickly with the coolant temperature. I've seen it hit 230 f recently for a short period of time (I had the alert on, when I pulled over, the rad fan was on), just towing a empty utility in head on high winds. The temperature was just above zero degrees. That not a good sign, so far.

I haven't rule out the possibility that trailer towing capacity is over rated. I be testing that over time.

 

[seiko]

Someone posted on the other thread, that there is another heater core involved.

 

[RoninRam]

That was me. I just made the observation that I had not seen any mention of issues with the heater core. Given that the heater core uses engine coolant I would assume that there will be a fair amount of oil residue left in it and if the radiator, oil cooler and hoses are replaced that it might be a possible site of remaining oil. Just a guess, mind you.

 

[seiko]

Thanks for the info. Next time, I'm at the dealer, I quiz them about.

 

[RoninRam]

FWIW, I just got off the phone with the service rep at the dealership where we bought the truck and when I described my problem with oil in the coolant he said "it's the first I've heard of that...". I guess they'll be getting a new learning experience.

 

[seiko]

Yikes....

If they are telling the truth, then the issue is not that common, just on the forums. If they did know, then they are doing the usual deception, protect the brand at all cost and damage control. Putting their interest first, before the client.

Would be nice, to be wrong here.

Let us know what happens and what they tell you.

What your location, I'm in Calgary, AB, Canada

I'm over 20,000 km (12,000 miles), Seem around 20,000 to 30,000 miles may be the time it will happen.

 

[seiko]

FYI: I have the "Fault Code" app on my iPhone, and entered P1296. Supports most vehicles.

One cause of loosing supply voltage is moisture/icing. Happen to me once, -27C, trip to Ainsworth Hotspring, BC, and had truck wash the day before, but it was mild. On the trip, error came up, once truck dried out, reset the error via EDGE CS2 and never came back. According to EVIC, it was a minor issue and one can continue to drive.

Fault Description:
Manifold absolute pressure (MAP) sensor - supply voltage

Possible Causes:
Wiring, MAP sensor, ECM


Sorry for not responding earlier, on the code request. Yes, it is normal for soot to increase quicker during cold weather. 1 percent every 2 to 3 km would be common. The only fix right now, use winter covered, fully closed.

I hear rumours, that FCA will have a full built in covers, not just partial as they are now.

No, I don't idle, just five minutes or so when first starting the truck in the morning. I have block heater, don't use it, not yet. Maybe when it -40 or colder.

Interestingly, lots of other diesel truck have automatic shut-off timer when truck is idling. The manufacture keeps saying not to idle long periods. Isn't this telling us something?

I notice a lot, since switching over to Shell V-Power Diesel, it starts fast and instant when using Remote, before going out to the truck from my window. There seem to be at times, the Soot didn't build up as quick. But, I expect, it is the winter covers that doing that well. Undetermined at this time.

over 20,500 km and all is well so far....

 

[seiko]

Update: I check my record and I had the same code P1296. However, my Edge CS2 gave more details, suggesting I lost 5v. By reseting the code, the problem was intermittent. I suspect it was a frost issue,( -27 Celsius, plus wind chill factor, Dec 25/2016) which cleared itself, after truck dried out on an all day trip to the hot springs.

It is on my list to record the issue with the service department on my next oil change, which is about 4,000 km to go.

 

[RoninRam]

Seiko, FWIW, I have no reason to believe that the service rep wasn't anything other than truthful. As you mentioned, the internet and its forums can often make it seem as if everyone is having a similar problem when it might just be a few here and there.

I'm generally optimistic about stuff like and I'm going into this confident that this problem will work out well for the dealership and us.

 

[Mharrison]

I guess it just depends on the area some have quite a few of these trucks some dont. There are 3 trucks now that are friends and customers of mine here in town that have all had the issue. So my basic statistics math tells me there are a lot.

 

[seiko]

Alberta has lots of ram's, though most are Hemi's and turbodiesel. Next time, I'm at the dealer, I will ask, if they know how common and/or have they experienced the oil contamination issues.

I have only come across half dozen owner with EcoDiesel 3.0 in my running around town, so far. When chatting with them, all okay so far, but like me vehicle still has low mileage. Gave what I learnt and suggested they log in to this forum.

I have been watching other forums, similar to this one and there are a few there who have reported same issue and total engine failures. Don't think, they are member here. I wish to be wrong, as it concerns me too.

 

[Mharrison]

I do as well...it will take quite some time for me to get up around the 20k mile mark when they tend to fail. And I hope mine never does. But I will seek out an aftermarket route shortly if FCA does not do something on their own.

 

[seiko]

My mileage will start climbing very quick soon, summer season coming on. In the meantime, doing a plan B, just in case scenario. FCA silence on the matter will affect sales, I would think. It has stop me from getting a second EcoDiesel. They really don't have a customer service department, only on paper. Told them that too.

I sold off one vehicle and holding off from replacing it as long as possible.

 

[seiko]

Came across some info on REGEN and consequences of frequent failure to REGEN. This may apply to long period of idling.

Checking oil level may be a good indicator as fuel can leak into the oil. Leaky injectors can do that too. If this is a cause, one can easily correct before damage.

Having oil analyzed occasionally may help, if one is getting that issue. It would be a good idea on what can contaminate the oil and seems like an easy fix.

Not sure, logic seems okay, but here what I'm reading....

"If you fail a regen, you get fuel wash. If you fail lots of regens, you get lots of wash, and lots of dilution, and if you drive your truck in town to work every day you probably get going just fast enough to start a regen, and then fail it A LOT."

"The experience with "making" oil indicates an internal engine issue. It could be fuel, coolant or both... Fuel contamination will literally kill that motor as it breaks down the oil and acts like a solvent"

 

[seiko]

Notice what it says about idling. It seems some of the claims of Shell V-Power may help in some of those areas listed.

PHYSICAL TESTS

• Viscosity cSt @ 100 ° C: Measures the flowability of an oil at a given temperature. High viscosity may be from extended oil change, or from an after market oil additive.
• Water: Presence of water may be from condensation or may be indicative of a coolant leak. Water is reported as a percentage. Too much water will make the oil cloudy and/or milky and will need to be changed.
• Fuel Dilution: Measurement of fuel in the oil. Reported in 2%, 4% or >6%. Small percentages of fuel may be from excessive idling. Excessive fuel may be from a mechanical problem that needs to be corrected. Excessive fuel will reduce the lubrication properties of the oil.
• Anti-Freeze: A chemical test is done to determine percentage of glycol in the system. Any amount of glycol is abnormal. Glycol contamination may result in filter plugging, overheating and overall internal engine wear.

OIL CONDITION

• Fuel Soot: Reported as % of weight. Soot is what makes diesel engine oil black. Soot needs to be controlled. Excessive soot can shorten engine life and will be very abrasive.
• Oxidation: Occurs when oxygen molecules join with oil molecules. Oxidation will make the oil thicker than normal and lose lubrication. It will be accelerated by high oil temperatures and glycol contamination.
• Nitration: Occurs in all engines, but is generally a problem in Natural Gas Engines. Nitrogen compounds from combustion thicken the oil and reduce lubrication.
• Sulfation: Sulfur is present in fuels and affects engines. Fuel sulfur oxidizes and combines with water to form acid during combustion. Acids corrode all engine parts.

 

[seiko]

Am I understanding this correctly. If the above statement are correct.

Those who idle their engine a lot and those who interrupt their REGEN process a lot, increases the amount of fuel that get into your oil. Increases their chances of engine failure. It like driving your truck with bad/used oil.

Why the coolant leak? if you are getting lots of fuel (cheap diesel, high sulphur levels) in the oil, and their is always some water and sulphur, acid is form. Is their enough acid to breach the joints in the oil coolers?

 

[Ecobummer]

What brand of cover are you using? Any chance it's a no drill set up?

 

[Ecobummer]

So the dealership flushed the radiator and said the check engine was regen fouling. I complained that it took 2 days to decider the codes and that I thought the oil in the reservoir was a deeper problem. I did find something concerning. The oil level was reading way past the fill line or flat for that matter. I assume that when you miss a regen cycle from driving in town as I do that you get diesel wash. Any thoughts? Can't they program the damn smart truck to idle way down on a idle like a normal diesel. $50,000 truck that I can't use except for long hauls? Bs really mopar.

 

[seiko]

I found this excerpt about diesel wash and all the things that can kill an engine. Be prepare, it can be depressing, but keep in mind it applies to all diesel and brands.

Not sure if the question was for me, but it winter cover supplied by FCA and it hook up with elastic bands, etc.

Making Oil in your Engine? Oil Dilution - Fuel Contamination
Here is a very interesting article regarding engine oil contamination from Diesel fuel.

Some contaminants are important to monitor and analyze because they are root causes of premature oil degradation and engine failure. Other contaminants are symptomatic of an active failure condition that requires a response other than just an oil change. For instance, seal damage leading to fuel dilution or glycol contamination cannot be remedied by performing an oil change or switching to a better quality lubricant. Such symptom-based contaminants are also root causes that enable new failures to occur. The value of oil analysis in detecting problems early goes without saying.

Any one of the contaminants described below is capable of causing premature or even sudden engine failure. I've left dirt contamination off the list because I covered particle-induced engine failures in a previous column. It is worth noting that problems are more pronounced when contamination combos exist, such as high soot load with glycol or high soot load with fuel dilution. There are numerous failure pathways and consequential sequence of events. Thousands of diesel engines fail prematurely each year aided by the presences of glycol, fuel, soot and water in the engine oil.

Fuel Dilution
Frequent starts of an engine, excessive idling and cold running conditions can lead to moderate fuel dilution problems. Severe dilution (excess of two percent) is associated with leakage, fuel injector problems and impaired combustion efficiency. These are symptomatic of serious conditions that cannot be corrected by an oil change. According to one reference, 0.36 percent of total fuel consumption ends up in the crankcase. Problems associated with fuel dilution include:

• Diesel fuel dilution in cold operating conditions can cause waxing. During startup, this can result in low oil pressure and starvation conditions.

• Diesel fuel carries unsaturated aromatic molecules into the motor oil which are pro-oxidants. This can result in a premature loss of base number (loss of corrosion protection) and oxidative thickening of the motor oil, causing deposits and mild starvation.

• Fuel dilution can drop the viscosity of a motor oil from say, a 15W40 to a 5W20. This collapses critical oil film thicknesses, resulting in premature combustion zone wear (piston, rings and liner) and crankcase bearing wear.

• Fuel dilution from defective injectors commonly causes wash-down of oil on cylinder liners which accelerates ring, piston and cylinder wear. It also causes high blow-by conditions and increased oil consumption (reverse blow-by).

• Severe fuel dilution dilutes the concentration of oil additives and hence, diluting their effectiveness.

• Fuel dilution by biodiesel may result in higher than normal problems compared to diesel refined by crude stock. These problems include oxidation stability, filter plugging issues, deposit formation and volatility resulting in crankcase accumulations.

Soot
Soot is a by-product of combustion and exists in all in-service diesel engine motor oils. It reaches the engine by various means of blow-by during engine operation. While the presence of soot is normal and expected for a given number of miles or hours of service on an engine oil, the concentration and state of soot may be abnormal, signaling a problem with the engine and/or a need for an oil change. Following are some issues related to soot contamination:

• Combustion efficiency is directly related to the soot generation rate. Poor ignition timing, restricted air filter and excessive ring clearance cause high soot load. Combustion problems are not solved by an oil change.

• New diesel engines designed for lower emissions have higher injection pressures. This corresponds to increased sensitivity to abrasive wear (for example, from soot) between rocker, shaft and rocker bearing and can lead to rocker arm seizure. New exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) units on diesel engines amplify the amount and abrasivity of soot production.

• Viscosity increases with soot load. However, high dispersancy associated with some modern engine oils may increase viscosity with soot even more. High viscosity corresponds to cold-start problems and risk of oil starvation.

• Soot and sludge in engines deposit or separate from the oil in the following areas, all presenting risks to engine reliability including rocker boxes, valve covers, oil pans and head deck.

• Deposits on engine surfaces interfere with combustion efficiency and fuel/oil economy.

• Soot polishes off protective antiwear soap films in boundary zones such as cam and cam-follower zones.

• Carbon jacking from the buildup of soot and sludge behind piston rings in grooves can cause rapid wear of rings and cylinder walls. This can cause broken or severely damaged rings during cold-start conditions.

Water
Water is one of the most destructive contaminants in most all lubricants. It attacks additives, induces base oil oxidation and interferes with oil film production. Low levels of water contamination are normal in engine oils. High levels of water ingression merit attention and are rarely correctable by performing an oil change. The following are some additional notes on water contamination:

• Long idling in wintertime causes water condensation in crankcase, which leads to loss of base number and corrosive attack on surfaces, oxidation of the oil, etc.

• Emulsified water can mop up dead additives, soot, oxidation products and sludge. When mobilized by flowing oil, these globular pools of sludge can knock out filters and restrict oil flow to bearings, pistons and the valve deck.

• Water sharply increases the corrosive potential of common acids found in motor oil.

Glycol
Glycol enters diesel engine motor oils as a result of defective seals, blown head gaskets, cracked cylinder heads, corrosion damage and cavitation. One study found glycol in 8.6 percent of 100,000 diesel engine samples tested. A separate study of 11,000 long-haul trucks found severe levels of glycol in 1.5 percent of samples and minor amounts of glycol in 16 percent of samples. The following are some of the risks associated with glycol contamination:

• Just 0.4 percent coolant containing glycol in diesel engine oil is enough to coagulate soot and cause a dump-out condition leading to sludge, deposits, oil flow restrictions and filter blockage.

• According to one study, glycol contamination results in wear rates 10 times greater than water contamination alone.

• Glycol reacts with oil additives causing precipitation. For instance, an important antiwear additive in motor oils, zinc dialkyl dithiophosphate (ZDDP), will form reaction products and plug filters when oil is contaminated with glycol. This leads to loss of antiwear and antioxidant performance as well.

• Glycol has led to cold seizure of engines.

• Ethylene glycol oxidizes into corrosive acids, including the following: glycolic acid, oxalic acid, formic acid and carbonic acid. These acids cause a rapid drop in the oil's alkalinity (base number), resulting in an unprotected corrosive environment and base oil oxidation.

• Oil ***** (abrasive spherical contaminants) form from the reaction of calcium sulfonate detergent additives (found in nearly all motor oils) and glycol contamination. These ***** are a known cause of damage to crankcase bearings and other frictional surfaces within an engine.

• Glycol contamination substantially increases oil viscosity which impairs lubrication and oil cooling.

Failure Development Period
The failure development period can vary considerably for these contaminants. Most sudden-death failures from moderate levels of contamination will usually have one or more aggravating factors (the combo effect). Conversely, massive concentrations of one or more of these contaminants can result in sudden-death failures unaided by an aggravating circumstance. There are dozens of other aggravating factors that can drastically shorten the failure development period as well. More typical is when a moderate problem goes unnoticed and develops over time. This can shorten engine life from say, 75,000 miles to 300,000 miles.

The cumulative effect of oil contamination on engine reliability, fuel economy, exhaust stream emissions and maintenance cost of a large fleet is massive. There are no motor oil additives that control the damage caused by these contaminants. Therefore, proactive maintenance and oil analysis are critical strategies to counteract risks.

Please reference this article as:
Jim Fitch, "Four Lethal Diesel Engine Oil Contaminants". Machinery Lubrication Magazine. May 2007