EPA holding 2017 Diesels hostage

[TC Diesel]

Manages Pressures are one of the best and safest ways to add HP to any HPCR... I'm sure Green death environment tune is basically a pressure box tune, You can advance the timing by increase pressure's... I doubt with the cloud over the ED that custom mapping and logging will be some time off if ever, The 1st thing I was going to do was map a green death tune for what it most likely it is a box tune.

GDE is another sign, they defeated certain devices with ease indicting poor or no trip tuning, Cat ,Cummins, Detroit, others paid millions in fines for allowing the options to be defeated.

EFIlive ,RaceMe and other stay within the parameters of legal selling. Some have the idea the law does NOT have provision for aftermarket selling

1st when you use the device

Are you the owner of this device Y/N
Are You the owner of the vehicle the device is being installed Y/N
Are You 18years or older Y/N
You must use the device within all state and Fed laws Y/N
By installing this device YOU take on all reasonability of its use Y/N
This device is to be used for race or competition use only Y/N
By installing this device you agree to all its terms Y/N

All this is done by the installer or owner, if you disagree with the any of the terms the device stopped and some will lock up requiring you to return to maker.

I have no problem with companies that sell according to the laws , GDE process is far form legal and it deceive FCA form warranty claims.
If GDE was to remove the FCA markings on any module they tune and put their Company logo ( By the way T&C places its company logo on any part or device it alters) this post would have NOT happen.

Another Big Problem I had at 1500diesel.com was the second you mentioned you were you warranty station on Green death tunes the delete post card was played.

 

[bobcat67]

The drilling rig I work on has an SCR system on it, no DPF, but has a enough catalysts inside the exhaust system to supposedly reduce NOx, (the only compound they seem to test for) by 90%, the engines run marginally cleaner (still emit plenty of black smoke) than non equipped 3512 Caterpillar motors. People complain about DEF consumption in their pickups like it's a huge expense, we go through ~150 gallons a day. The rig burns an avg of about 3500-4000 gallons of fuel a day, about on par with every other rig of this type I've worked, emissions requirements don't mean we have to burn more fuel. We are required to have this equipment on the engines due to the area we are drilling in. It's not federally mandated, but the state requires it. We have to test it everyday, where the results are sent I don't know, probably the state and our corporate office. This emissions equipment was being utilized in the area over 10 years ago. I am personally not against cleaner air, I do think there are better solutions to meeting the requirements than we are currently being forced to use. I don't care for the smoke belching diesels of old, that being said a 1997 12v that is maintained and timed correctly gets over the 2x the fuel economy of a 2008-2010 6.4 Powerstroke with factory emissions provisions. To me it just doesn't add up, burn 2x the fuel to save the environment? The math just doesn't add up to me.

 

[stormcom]

Well, I did not mean to offend anybody with my thoughts. I have some insight into the EPA, I do believe they used their ability to slice and dice a reg to support their need to apply a lawsuit to the FCA. I do not believe in coincidence either, look at the timing and whom is leaving office and how these new reg's where pushed thru by the admin in power. Follow the "not money" but the supporters and you will come to a direct line of admin over reach to EPA reg's that are in excess of the world in every way. If you look at the suit the alleged breaking of the law is directed to the software that is put in place to save the engine when thing go wrong. This is allowed, you can call it for simple terms a limp mode that is self correcting when the engine begins to meet proper running conditions. If conditions are temporary for a reason, over heating, you are hauling too much load and demanding more then the engine can give, it will detune.

The software safety modes are allowed in these reg's, they were disclosed in the material and software given to get approval. When the engine is running at normal conditions it runs and meets the requirement set out. FCA does not detect and reset software conditions to pass a test. The results they are alleging are a rare occurrence and in a lot of the cases inflicted by the owners by exceeding limits. Not all of these are owner inflicted, some are just the engine detecting failing conditions due to a sensor or a major part.

I for one believe that to protect the engine this is a good thing, not a bad think and for the rarity of its impact on the environment is just really nuts to think we are at risk.

Now, Stormcom to some comment of how the FCA did not stand up behind your vehicle with electrical concerns, does not apply to the lawsuit against the emissions.
Now with that said, I really dislike companies that do not stand behind their product. These situations need to be made public and you are well
within you right to force the lemon law. I believe you may have had even more bargaining power if it is reported and proved to fall under the "Lemon Law" statute that was passed. I for one would stand with you in all of those concerns, I do not think any person buying a vehicle or for that matter any large purchase and buying good faith of a product should endure this. Sorry, you went thru all of that, it not only the money you lost, but the stress it put on you and the large amount of time you wasted trying to resolve the issue.

TC Diesel, I do agree, the lawsuit will bare out the facts, although it is sometime just easier to pay a fine then to endure the onslaught of the US Government. EPA levies a huge fine on VW, what did they use and how did they decide that amount of money, it was obscene, it is out of proportion unless you are trying to get them to stop selling in the US. Never know the intentions of the department, it has overreached in way too many cases. If you look at some of these lawsuit and the individual that where drug though court for years, spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on defense and finally awarded a win. Common sense would have told you that, but look at the persons they attacked, the political loyalty of them and you will defend the thought that there is a political nature to lot of what they do. Again, oversight is needed, But, to attack citizens, to part them with their money so they can't support their affiliation, is just criminal in itself, and then to have the EPA to be ruled wrong. As a citizen you have no recourse to recapture all of those hundreds of thousands of dollars, the government has parted your from your money and diminished your wealth.

Again, can you say IRS. To believe the EPA does not have a political slant is not really facing the problem. I have lost faith in these huge bureaucracies, there is so many factions in each dept. with sometimes their own agendas.

I am a first time dodge owner, I have been a very loyal Ford supporter since I worked in the energy industry, they just stood up and had very little down time. I owned an oilfield service company and was a GM person for years. But, after all of the down time due to rounded cam lobe's and rear axle failures, I changed over to a couple of ford 3/4 tons truck to try them. My down time was almost zero, gas, oil changes, brakes and tires, pretty much just maintenance. I would keep a truck for about 85K miles and sale them. Most of my trucks would mile out in less than a year so, I would be buying and selling a fleet of about 40 pickups a year. So, ford earned my dollars by saving me dollars, GM's always carried a bit higher resale value but it was by far to small an amount for the down time cost and repair cost. An axle swap does not take long, but if you have to load it up on a flat bed and run it back 200 mile to civilization, not really cost effective and then the cost of the gears set and labor.

Stormcom, I am truly on your side, as companies should stand behind their products, I would rather see a class action suit against FCA for this, as it is real, measurable and hurts the owners directly. I have had many battles with GM, so I stopped battling and moved my dollars.

I truly understand you loss of money on your vehicles, I have felt you pain.
Again, I did not make comments on this post too offend anybody. Everybody has their opinions, thoughts and experiences and I truly respect those, they are all different and real to each one of us.

I never write on these post, I just like reading them, I have to admit, I learn a lot and really do enjoy reading them. But, I just had enough, of the EPA and over reach. I have seen this directly and dealt with them directly (energy industry). I bet you can tell I am not a fan of the EPA or any of those depts. as I mentioned previously.

I have just over 21k on my eco diesel, I have changed the oil myself, each and every time ( 6k per change). I also have kept each oil filter, an 8oz sample of each oil change in sample bottles that I purchased just for saving the oil sample. I kept the purchase receipt for the Oil and filters to prove the purchase and of course I still have the filters and oil samples. I have never done this, but with so many owners making comments on problems, I looked at this as an insurance Policy.
Your comment of fighting FCA, gave me flash backs of arguing with the GM dealer and the GM regional rep over rear ends and gear set and even the paint on the vehicle would peel. I lost more pinion seals and gear sets than normal, out of 40 trucks a year I would lose 5 or 6 gears sets and usually 4 or 5 rounded of cam lobe's. It was never warrantied.

I just ordered a Green Diesel Engineering ECU yesterday. I think turning off the EGR is a plus for the engine. recycling waste engine gas is just not healthy for any part of the engine. I have worked around diesel of all kinds, from very large, as in Rig power plants for diesel electric rigs to directly diesel powered rigs. And of course Oil Field 18 wheeler rig movers, down to small 5kw generators. The longevity and dependability of these engines are outstanding. Hence my decision to replace my ECU.

I read a study a year or so ago, I will look for it. It showed that some of the small diesel power plants (new entry 1/2 ton up to 2-ton) would if tuned correctly would give off slightly higher emissions but with much better power delivery and fuel economy. Resulting in the delivering of less into the atmosphere due to the much better fuel economy. Again, sometimes academia and living on a theoretical reality on paper is not real world. I experience that in the energy industry on a regular basis, theoretic reality and the real world are quite different.

Again, I rattled on too long. Sorry! I Appreciate all of the comments. I will try to reduce down my comments to much shorter statements or go back into obscurity and just continue to read these post. I truly get on a rant.

I agree 100 per cent with what you wrote. I also agree that both sides are playing poker. We are the ones left hanging. I will stop my rant but and will wait to see what happens. Is cummins next? If you make the EPA mad, they will go after everything and everybody.

 

[TC Diesel]

FCA and Cummins already have $400 Million legal battle going on over the replacement of 2013-15 6.7 2500 SCRs

 

[dbr2]

Manages Pressures are one of the best and safest ways to add HP to any HPCR... I'm sure Green death environment tune is basically a pressure box tune, You can advance the timing by increase pressure's... I doubt with the cloud over the ED that custom mapping and logging will be some time off if ever, The 1st thing I was going to do was map a green death tune for what it most likely it is a box tune.

GDE is another sign, they defeated certain devices with ease indicting poor or no trip tuning, Cat ,Cummins, Detroit, others paid millions in fines for allowing the options to be defeated.

EFIlive ,RaceMe and other stay within the parameters of legal selling. Some have the idea the law does NOT have provision for aftermarket selling

1st when you use the device

Are you the owner of this device Y/N
Are You the owner of the vehicle the device is being installed Y/N
Are You 18years or older Y/N
You must use the device within all state and Fed laws Y/N
By installing this device YOU take on all reasonability of its use Y/N
This device is to be used for race or competition use only Y/N
By installing this device you agree to all its terms Y/N

All this is done by the installer or owner, if you disagree with the any of the terms the device stopped and some will lock up requiring you to return to maker.

I have no problem with companies that sell according to the laws , GDE process is far form legal and it deceive FCA form warranty claims.
If GDE was to remove the FCA markings on any module they tune and put their Company logo ( By the way T&C places its company logo on any part or device it alters) this post would have NOT happen.

Another Big Problem I had at 1500diesel.com was the second you mentioned you were you warranty station on Green death tunes the delete post card was played.

The GDE tune is a full replacement ECU exchange. So, you remove and replace the ECU I am pretty sure it does not have any RAM marking on it as it is an aftermarket ECU. So if ram want to open the engine bay they can see the different ECU. I am wanting the EGR turned off and the Engine brake programmed on. It is strange that in Europe the tune is so much more relaxed, Oh Yeah, they do not have to meet the excessively high emission standards of the US.

adding an outside programmer that can be easily removed like the Banks is harder on the ecodiesel as it just alters some parameters, mostly fools or alters the mas air flow sensor and increases rail pressure. I considered those options, I just do not think those are healthy options. I chose to replace the entire brain or ECU with a complete parameter tuned by the engineers. They do programming for many industrial diesel engines mostly in the farming equipment. These tunes are engineered and tested. They do not defeat all of the safety in the software, the engine will still detune if any of the same parameter are hit. I do not want to blow up the engine. I just want a cleaner running engine without the outside tricks with the external boxes. I think I will have a longer engine life. I did not ask for any hot tunes. I tow too much to force the engine past its components. I know banks has now contracted with the US government and now supplies these exact engines to them, of course they replace all the guts, fuel delivery, increases the turbo size and uses there own proprietary programming. These run on the JP8 fuel the army uses. The engine is a Banks 630T with 270HP and 535 torque. So, it is obvious that the engine is quiet viable to produce power and stay together, You can actually buy this engine from banks. So, if mine goes south, I know what I am replacing it with, Maybe. I think they also upgrade or even use a different transmission. So, I may not be replacing if mine bites the dust, could be very expensive to replace. Have to rethink that position. Just hope mine stays together for 5 years then I will see what the market has to offer. Should be a new world of offering or maybe companies just pull the offering. Time will tell.

 

[dbr2]

I agree 100 per cent with what you wrote. I also agree that both sides are playing poker. We are the ones left hanging. I will stop my rant but and will wait to see what happens. Is cummins next? If you make the EPA mad, they will go after everything and everybody.

I am a little cynical, yes I believe the EPA is not looking out for consumers, I believe they are looking out for the interest that supports them. Waiting to see what will change now. Hopefully they clean house. Thousand of Pink slips Monday can't be soon enough.

I guess defunding would be a quick way to get a voluntary reduction. Just Saying!

enjoyed all the different comments and views.
Have a great evening!! I'm out for the night.

 

[1shadowsabre]

As long as one of those oink skips aren't for you i'll wager (sheesh)

 

[NC-RAM]

Just was in at the dealer last week, i will post my issue in another string. Talking to sells, You can't order an 2017 Eco Diesel , they have remove the engine from the option page. Service Manager says some kind of patch programming would be coming out for the 2014-2016 models. ? Getting mixed feelings.

 

[bobcat67]

the engine option is still available online

 

[NC-RAM]

Wow, so much for sells-men at the dealership. Still looking to see one.

 

[TC Diesel]

When is reality going to settle in, Maybe all of us should just think on real world events, If a Patch could meet the requirement it would have been already done, Ram has lost over What! 100+ million in sales. If it was as easy as software I'm sure it would have been already done, if not FCA I'm LOL.

 

[bobcat67]

Maybe if a patch could have fixed it they would have already sent that out, but that patch will probably have to be verified by the EPA first for at least a couple weeks or months. Reality has set in for me, I'm just along for the ride at this point, however I will not automatically assume total gloom and doom. Trying to be positive, they haven't issued any stop sales and I still see used ones for sale on the lots (as far as I know anyway, this is an ever changing game) Things are probably going to get worse for FCA before it gets better, that is probably true, however weirder things have happened though and it could end up not being as bad as we think..

 

[TC Diesel]

You may apply for certification months in advance, Ram could have applied for CDX MY17 in Nov of 15....
I believe in preparing for the worst and hoping for the best! Why BC it always works.

I don't need to see the dark side of the moon to know it exists, and If I smell a skunk I don't need to se one to know its around..

Companies have promoted just about anything on the platform of Blind eye's. and its just a case of the blind leading the blind.

 

[bobcat67]

TC, what would happen in your opinion if we brought our diesel fuel up to the standards of many other countries, with a cetane rating of 60 instead of the american standard of around 40? Would EGR still be such a pain in the butt if the combustion process was cleaner overall? Would DPF's get clogged up so fast? I personally don't know and have always wondered how much of an effect this would have on these newer "cleaner" engines. I have tried doing some research, but it usually ends up leading me around in circles.

 

[adaman7]

The GDE tune is a full replacement ECU exchange. So, you remove and replace the ECU I am pretty sure it does not have any RAM marking on it as it is an aftermarket ECU. So if ram want to open the engine bay they can see the different ECU. I am wanting the EGR turned off and the Engine brake programmed on. It is strange that in Europe the tune is so much more relaxed, Oh Yeah, they do not have to meet the excessively high emission standards of the US.

adding an outside programmer that can be easily removed like the Banks is harder on the ecodiesel as it just alters some parameters, mostly fools or alters the mas air flow sensor and increases rail pressure. I considered those options, I just do not think those are healthy options. I chose to replace the entire brain or ECU with a complete parameter tuned by the engineers. They do programming for many industrial diesel engines mostly in the farming equipment. These tunes are engineered and tested. They do not defeat all of the safety in the software, the engine will still detune if any of the same parameter are hit. I do not want to blow up the engine. I just want a cleaner running engine without the outside tricks with the external boxes. I think I will have a longer engine life. I did not ask for any hot tunes. I tow too much to force the engine past its components. I know banks has now contracted with the US government and now supplies these exact engines to them, of course they replace all the guts, fuel delivery, increases the turbo size and uses there own proprietary programming. These run on the JP8 fuel the army uses. The engine is a Banks 630T with 270HP and 535 torque. So, it is obvious that the engine is quiet viable to produce power and stay together, You can actually buy this engine from banks. So, if mine goes south, I know what I am replacing it with, Maybe. I think they also upgrade or even use a different transmission. So, I may not be replacing if mine bites the dust, could be very expensive to replace. Have to rethink that position. Just hope mine stays together for 5 years then I will see what the market has to offer. Should be a new world of offering or maybe companies just pull the offering. Time will tell.

Just FYI, the GDE tune, is an actual RAM ECU, which is why they give a heavy discount for a core exchange. They reuse it. Just look around the forum. I was researching it after I purchased a 2017 ED.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

 

[TC Diesel]

TC, what would happen in your opinion if we brought our diesel fuel up to the standards of many other countries, with a cetane rating of 60 instead of the american standard of around 40? Would EGR still be such a pain in the butt if the combustion process was cleaner overall? Would DPF's get clogged up so fast? I personally don't know and have always wondered how much of an effect this would have on these newer "cleaner" engines. I have tried doing some research, but it usually ends up leading me around in circles.

Biodiesel was the only fuel we found that would keep things clean, You still produce soot with Biodiesel, the race fuel allowed is 60 so you still will have soot under certain conditions. Its the NOx that next to impossible to stop at cylinder pressures needed to Max small displacement diesel HP that moves 6000+ truck. Ram did a great Job in the HP on the 3.0, I always thought they could Make the HP and NOT the NOx, so I'm NOT surprised that the 3.0 not meeting the cert. If there was some type of formula the EPA had that off-set Mileage vs small amount of NOx the 3.0 would be a winner for sure.

 

[Joe Lee]

TC Diesel,

I've been reading your posts for the last two weeks and it's opened a lot of things I hadn't considered.

So, at this point, is it your opinion that Ram will permanently abandon the 3.0 ecodiesel platform going forward? Is it an issue of being able to satisfy the EPA but kill the mpg efficiency or is there something in this design that simply prohibits compliance all together?

I'm no mechanic so this may be a dumb question but what makes this engine so much harder to meet the EPA standards than the 2.8 that GM is putting in the Colorados and Canyons? I know it's a I-4 versus a V-6 but beyond that I don't much about the differences.

I know that's a lot of questions, any info can share is appreciated.

 

[TC Diesel]

The Canyon is only 180HP and weights in at 2000 Less than the 1500 ED
The Canyon Tow Cap 7000lbs ED 9300LBS.
The ED needs to push 6000+lbs curb & 2000 more more tow,thats 4300LBS more than the Canyon, it needs the 250HP to do so.....So you must add additional Boost to stay RPM honorable, This additional boost 5-30PSI allows more fuel to be injected to created HP, this increases cylinder pressures cause extreme heat at flame during combustion, the additional Heat and flame increases NOx, You can offset this with EGR internal or external lower the flame temp, and adding a mixture of water and urea at certain heat levels.

Larger displacement motors don't need all the boost to create HP ....
I ask over the infinite wisdom Forum (1500diesel.com) if anyone including the Mods could NOT answer this question.. Why Cummins in 2006-7 went 5.0 Displacement. They new that small displacement would have tuff go of it for the HP and ratings in the future...

If you want a 200hp 1500 that pulls 7000lbs and is a slug than FCA can meet the NOx level with 3.0

When you purchased a hero 3.0 ED it was a winner, great mileage powerful, finish was awesome, if you got a zero you hated it.

 

[Joe Lee]

Thanks for the info.

So, based on your information, it appears the option will be to tune down (weaker) the engine which will get worse fuel mpg or stop using the platform completely. Again I'm not a mechanic or engineer so I'm just trying to learn a little.

Seems like this may be a drawn out ordeal.

 

[TC Diesel]

Yep, that's the deal, it will be interesting to see how it plays out.

Ford been working on new diesel technology with this Cloud I'm sure the Blue Oval celebrating.